Hangi VR?

[bonuSimo]

öyle bişey yok. uçak çıktığında araba bitti mi bitmedi.

[nileppezdel]

First person oyunlarin cogunda cozemediler hala bulanti sorununu. Ayeica boynun agrir. Hardcore oyuncu oturup 8 saat oyun oynuyor. Bunu nasil yapacaksin kafanda kocaman seyle ve surekli saga sola baka baka?

[reyou]

Oculus un manualinde tek seferde 1 saatten fazla kullanmayin saftiniz kayabilir diye uyari koymuslar.

[LathspeLL]

O uyarı basit bünyeler için. Gerçek gamer yatağa girerken bile çıkarmaz headset'i.

[Kanuni]

Vive rahatsizmis, agir, kablolar dert, on taraf yuze oturmuyor vs.. Tabii kullanana gore degisir ama kablo ve agirlik kotu. Gozleri yoruyormus her ikiside ki normal.

2.-3. Nesile kadar idare edelim bir seylerle :)

[LathspeLL]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iY6Gdnxt4nk&feature=youtu.be&t=42s

[LathspeLL]

Konunun başlığına en iyi cevap bu video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBieKwa2ID0&feature=youtu.be

[reyou]

ps4 olanlar default ps vr i beklerler heralde sdfdsf

vive in move traker lari oculus a gore daha iyi sanki. odanin tepesine 2 tane asiyosun baya bi full coverage sagliyo.

oculus ta ps4 camerasi gibi karsisina gecmen gerek.

gozlukten vazgecmeyen kisiler icin oculus icin lens tak cikar gerekiyor sanirim, 3 ayri buyukluk var, vive da ise tek lens ile gozluklu gozluksuz ayarlamasi yapilabiliyor.

esneklik konusunda vive biraz onde ama, kafaya takip test etmeden review lardan gitmek yaniltabilir.

bir de developer lar oyun gelistirirken nasil coverage yapcaklar? her iki gozluge ayni framework den gelistirebilcekler mi?

[sabonis]

LathspeLL said:

Konunun başlığına en iyi cevap bu video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBieKwa2ID0&feature=youtu.be

oculus çoğu şeyde eziyor gibi. rahatlık, kulaklık, mikrofon vs gibi. Tek merak ettiğim şu lenslerin uzaklığını ayarlama ne kadar önemli. Oculus sıçabilir mi yani lens uzaklığını ayarlattırmıyor diye..

ben henüz gerçekten immersion yaratacak grafiklere ve el tracking'ine sahip olmadığımız (alet diil el) için, etrafta yürümenin falan çok da önemli olmayacağını düşünüyorum. veya daha doğrusu çabuk bayabilecek bir şey olduğunu düşünüyorum. hani daha ilk jenerasyondan bu şekilde girmek yerine 2-3. jenerasyonda ortalıkta dolaşmalı olaylara girmek gerekirdi sanki bana göre. Yani, tracking eldiveni giymeden elinde 2 çubuk tutarken ok çekmek ve sonra trigger ile ok atmak immersion sağlamazmış gibi geliyor bana. He tabii sonuçta hiç denemedim, tamamen götümden uyduruyorum yani, belki de muhteşem immersion oluyordur.

Benim için olay şimdilik 3d ve aynı zamanda head tracking. yani ben klavye mouse ile bir oyun oynarken bu iki özelliği yeterince iyi veren ve kafamı sıkmayan, boğmayan bir headset'e ok'im. He kaldı ki ortalıkta yürüme ve tracking aletlerle oynama olayı hoşuma giderse hangisi daha iyi denemeden bilmek zor. Vive'ınki daha iyi gibi duruyor, kılıç ok bilmemne kullanımı için ama öte yandan Rift'inki daha böle elini açıp kapamayı simüle edebiliyor falan.

Bir de Vive için komple, büyükçe bir oda lazım. kaç kişinin evinde veya salonunda böle bi alan var? olsa da mesela salonda buna izin verilecek mi evdeki eş/ebeveyn tarafından. O iş biraz yaş ya.

Rift'in en büyük sıkıntısı steam vs home olacak gibi duruyor.

[LathspeLL]

Rift controller ile ekstra bir istasyon daha gelecekmiş. Roomscale oda yapacak.

Ben muhtemelen controller'ı bekleyip bundle olarak alırım. O zamana kadar da platform sıkıntıları, oyun destekleri falan gelişir. VorpX güncellendi mesela CV1 için. Bir çok oyun oynanabilir hale gelir.

[elesso]

ps4 götürür gibi.

1-2 tane yeni çıkacak sağlam oyunu desteklediler mi tamamdır. ama çok var çıkmasına.

[Flameoffear]

Benim sormak istediğim bir konu var.

2 VR cihazı ile tek bir oyuna bağlanabiliyor muyuz?

Ya da şu vive de gösterilen alanlara iki cihazı ortak bağlayabiliyor muyuz? Yapabiliyorsak ne gerekiyor?

[df]

multiplayer desteği olması gerekir. yani içeriği üreten tarafın o desteği vermesi lazım. yoksa olmaz.

[dasaaa]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjE6qXd6Itw
kewl

[reyou]

fakirler icin vr client lari cikmaya baslamis sanirim sdfsdf

http://trinusvr.com/

ios app i daha hazir degilmis, ilginc biseye benziyo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqIRCmghoZ0&feature=youtu.be

[Borastus]

vr için alternatif yöntemler falan

http://mspoweruser.com/microsoft-research-propose-solution-small-field-view-vr-ar-video/

[sabonis]

felaket tellalı gelmiş:
https://www.quora.com/How-big-an-issue-is-the-nausea-problem-for-Virtual-Reality-products/answer/Steve-Baker-9


INTRODUCTION:

I've been working with helmet mounted displays in military flight simulation for several decades - I am an expert in the field.

IMHO - these devices should be banned - but that may not be necessary because after the first wave of early adopters I think it’ll go the way of 3D televisions. But that’s just my opinion. Let me explain why.

Everyone thinks these things are new and revolutionary...but they really aren't. All that's happened is that they dropped in price from $80,000 to $500...and many corners have been cut along the way.

There are several claims that the nausea problem has either been fixed, or will soon be fixed, or that application design can be used to work-around the problem.

The claims that it’s been fixed are based on the theory that the nausea is caused by latency/lag in the system, or by low resolution displays or by inaccurate head motion tracking…all of which can (and are) being fixed by obvious improvements to the system. Sadly, the $80,000 googles we made for the US military had less latency, higher resolution displays, and more accurate head tracking than any of the current round of civilian VR goggles…and they definitely made people sick - so this seems unlikely.

The problem is that the people who make those claims are either ignorant (or are deliberately ignoring) the evidence collected over 20 years of flight simulation experience with VR goggles (only we called them “Helmet Mounted Displays” - HMD’s - and what we did was called “simulation” and not “virtual reality”).

Worse still, there is strong research evidence that the harm they cause extends for as much as 8 hours AFTER you stop using the goggles.

DEPTH PERCEPTION:

I believe that the most major problem is with depth perception.

For objects closer than a few meters, you have to refocus the lens in your eye using the ciliary muscles. The amount of force that those muscles have to produce in order to achieve that focus is a direct measure of the distance to the object. There are no designs for displays that can produce light that’s focussed at a wide range of distances - so without some very new technology - we can’t fool the brain.

Other depth-perception mechanisms (which is the primary ones that VR displays employ) are stereopsis and convergence. In this case, the images seen in our two eyes are from slightly different vantage points and we ‘fuse’ those into a single image by making our eyes point inwards slightly so that the image is more or less the same in both eyes. This is done by applying tension to the inter-ocular muscles.

So we’re continually estimating range using the tensions in two sets of muscles - one for focus, the other for convergence. When the brain gets the right signals, these two mechanisms agree perfectly.

But in a VR display, they don’t agree. The focussing system says “This image is all at the same range” - the convergence system says “This image is at a variety of different ranges”. That’s not a problem beyond a few meters because the focussing system is only accurate for close-up objects - and the brain knows this.

So what happens when the convergence system says “It’s 2 meters away” and the focusing system says “It’s more than 3 meters away”?

In the real world, this simply cannot happen…so what have our caveman-evolved brains been wired to do under those circumstances? Well, some people simply reject the focus information and rely on other cues. But other people’s brains say “This is an impossibility - we must be hallucinating”…and if you’re hallucinating, and you’re a caveman, then you’ve probably eaten something poisonous - a “magic mushroom” maybe? And when that happens, your brain goes into panic mode and tries to empty this substance from your stomach…and you feel very, very nauseous.

And THAT problem can’t be fixed by any known technological means….we need entirely new research into optical systems that can dynamically refocus light on a pixel-by-pixel basis and which costs about $20 per eye.

So for that reason alone - people will always get sick with VR displays UNLESS the content is kept further than around 3 meters from them.

Sadly - that excludes ANY kind of application that happens inside a building - and ANY kind of application where you can interact with objects naturally at arm’s length.

This is why these displays were moderately successful in flight simulation! We’d sit people in a physical cockpit mockup and use translucent displays that let you see the real, physical cockpit - and simulated only the stuff outside the airplane…which is conveniently more than a few meters away! Hence these head mounted displays worked reasonably well most of the time. One exception to that was for in-flight refuelling - where the drogue and probe gizmo was just a meter or so from the pilot’s head…and that’s why many pilots hated training for inflight refuelling in a simulator. Until very recently - they did that training in a physical rig without graphics.

MOMENTUM:

When we move around in the real world, our bodies have to obey the laws of conservation of momentum. When you’re walking along, and suddenly stop, the mass of your body wants to continue to move forwards - and you have to apply muscular force to preventing your arms from swinging forwards and your head from tipping. This momentum has to be absorbed when you’re stopping in a car or even turning a corner.

Those forces are entirely absent in a VR rig…and your brain notices that.

With a TV or in a cinema - that’s generally not a problem - we seem to be able to understand that the distant flat screen isn’t “Real” - so we accept that there is no momentum compensation needed. But when we approach a more real display, we fall into that “uncanny valley” and suddenly we’re subconsciously very bothered by the lack of momentum on our bodies.

Caveman brain again - “My eyes say we’re accelerating - my muscles and balance organs say we’re not - we’re hallucinating - so vomit”.

We get seasick for the exact opposite reason. Our view of the inside of a ship looks like it’s a large, stationary room - but our motion systems say “No - we’re obviously moving because of momentum transfer”…and we’re hallucinating again…so vomit.

The Google Cardboard VR folks seem to know this and basically suggest that applications make it seem like we’re basically standing still and just turning our heads around (which we really are - so no nausea). That’ll work - but it’s not going to get you an immersive 1st person shooter game…or a car racing game…or…well, pretty much anything immersive.

This was also a problem in flight simulation - but not all people get seasick or motion-sick - and pilots are amongst that lucky group.

But this problem simply cannot be fixed by any means. The laws of physics don’t allow it.

SO WHERE ARE WE NOW?

So now, we can’t be in a confined space because of focus-induced nausea - and we can’t be accelerating and decelerating through the world because of momentum.

This locks out 99% of all of the really cool uses of VR. Hardly any videogames can get away without some acceleration of the viewpoint. No really fun, immersive, games can keep you more than 3 meters from every objects (in part because you’re less than 3 meters tall - and you can look down and see the floor!)

Sure, we can probably find some genres of “experiences” for which we can stand still and watch the action from a distance - but that’s absolutely NOT why people will want to buy these gadgets.

WHY DO PEOPLE LIKE VR THEN?

I’ve been working with these displays - both the $80,000 kind and the $500 kind - for years. Almost everyone can tolerate wearing them for several minutes before getting sick. About half of people feel sick after a few minutes - and (maybe) half of them get so sick that they have to take off the goggles ASAP. Anecdotal evidence - sadly.

Most of the demo’s that are given at trade shows and other industry events are just a few minutes long. I don’t know whether that’ s intentional or not…but it explains why so many people THINK that they’re going to love VR - sadly, they won’t realize the problem until AFTER they’ve splurged $500 on one of these gizmos.

When you’ve spent an hour in one of these contraptions - it can get very bad indeed.

When I worked on a team of a dozen people developing applications for the Oculus display - we each had a headset and a foam dummy head to put it on when not in use. We were developing both software and content - and we knew what we were doing because we were a highly experienced team. If you stood in that lab you’d notice something significant…nobody was wearing their Oculus. Sometimes - rarely - they’d put it on to check something - then take it off again within 30 seconds. We would mostly look at the side-by-side displays on a regular monitor. Most of us were very glad when that project wound down.

There is a name for this…”Simulator Sickness” (“SimSickness” for short).

IT GETS WORSE EVEN THAN THAT.

The killing blow for me comes from a series of US Navy studies on sim sickness.

Simulator sickness in U.S. Navy flight simulators.

http://www.usaarl.army.mil/TechR...

What they found was that even without nausea - there was a measurable degree of confusion and disorientation after prolonged exposure to VR experiences. This disorientation is the reason why the US Military advises against flying a plane or even driving a car for 24 hours after being inside a simulator.

The conclusions of the second paper are damning:

“One question still not answered is the actual time course of the symptoms experienced by the aviators in the simulator and the recurrence of delayed effects. Anecdotal data continues to be received indicating there is a part of the aviation population that experiences delayed problems beyond the simulator exposure and for periods that exceed 6 to 8 hours for approximately 8 percent of the population and l-to-2 days for an even smaller population. Studies be conducted to determine which scenarios are linked with simulator sickness and methods to prepare aviators to deal with those scenarios. A correlation of simulator sickness with actual flight experience under similar conditions should be determined in side-by-side studies conducted in the simulator and in the aircraft.”

“Studies be conducted to ascertain the period of time that an aviator should wait postflight before piloting an actual aircraft or even driving a car.”

Yeah - the US Navy believes that some people shouldn’t drive a car within one to two DAYS of being inside a VR environment!

CONCLUSIONS:

Sadly (because I want a “holodeck” as much as the next red-blooded geek) - I don’t think it’s possible to make a VR system that both delivers the experience that everyone wants - and doesn’t make a sizeable proportion of the population so sick that they’ll never want to do it again.

For the people who can stomach the display - my major concern is that the US Navy studies show that there is some disorientation that might persist long after finishing your game…so driving a car while “under the influence” of post-VR disorientation is probably as dangerous as drunk-driving.

If these devices are in pretty much every home - then there are huge problems in store for the industry in terms of product liability. There have been plenty of warnings from the flight simulation industry - there are no excuses for not reading the Wikipedia article on the subject. If people are driving “under the influence” and the VR companies didn’t warn them about that - then they’re in deep trouble.

IMHO, these consumer-grade VR devices should be carefully studied and if they do cause possible driving impairment, they should be banned until such time as the problems can be fixed…which may very well be “never”.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

[Anhora]

Bahsettiği konular sokaktaki vatandaşın çok uzağında. Millet ne bilsin momentum ney, yakınsama ney.. Anlaşılan bu teknolojinin biraz daha geliştirilmesi gerekiyor.

[Brightmist]

lol

[Flameoffear]

Kimse bunu monitör niyetine kullanmayacak ki. Arkadaş ortamında eğlenmek için kullanılacak. + bir de Vr porn için sdf. Ha arada çıkar manyağın biri 12 saat çıkarmaz kafasından. Bu kadar kötülemeye de gerek yok bence.

[Borastus]

beynin halusinasyon gördüğünü düşünüp kusmaya yönlendirmesi iyiymiş, düşününce çok mantıklı geldi aha.

said:

Almost everyone can tolerate wearing them for several minutes before getting sick. About half of people feel sick after a few minutes - and (maybe) half of them get so sick that they have to take off the goggles ASAP. Anecdotal evidence - sadly.

[bingildak]

durum buysa sektörde neden geliştiriliyor? ilk shipmentlar gideli aylar oldu. bu durumu son kullanıcılardan kimse fark etmemiş mi? para verdi diye herkes kusarak mı kullanıyormuş?

[BabacumMostors]

25 saat çıkarmayan bir arakdaş var;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZau6PiLoJc

[Brightmist]

[Borastus]

dünyada kimse uzun süre kullanamaz diye bir mevzu yok tek bir örnek ile çökertilecek durum değil.

vr konusunu her fırsatta deniyorum, borsada çalıştığım için buraya sürekli ar-ge firmaları geliyor vr ile şunları bunları yaptık emlak konusunda medikal konuda bunları yaptık diyen. fırsatım oldukça deniyorum hepsini ama hep bir sıkıntı var sanki rahat edemiyorum. he adamlar becerememiştir onu bilemeyeceğim ama daha fundamental bir sıkıntı var gibi geliyor. he ben lunaparkta gondola bile binemeyen bir insanım vr'i da 10 dk'dan uzun süre takamadım. herkes benim gibi değil çok rahat eden olur, benim gibi hemen çıkartmak isteyen de olur. ar-ge durdurulsun proje çöp demek salaklık olduğu gibi, milyar dolar harcandı artık gerçekten rahatlıkla kullanılacak bir ürün var demek de mantıksız bence.