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Total War: Rome 2

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Öne çıkan mesajlar

Law Mentor

Law

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Sam said:

Aman olmasın öyle chivalry gibi leş çakıyla ikiye yarılan adamlar. İyi böyle.


Yarılan adamlar demek istemedim, combatın dehşetini askerler üzerinde gözlemleyebilsek diyorum. Yaralıların çaığlıkları, yerdeki cesetler vs şeklinde. İyi bir galibiyet daha keyif verir, mağlubiyet ise daha bombok hissettirir :). Küçük bir detay ama oyunu daha güzel hale getirir, karikatürize etmeden o şiddeti verebilseler iyi olur.
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Law Mentor

Law

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"Tatar Ramazan" said:

seslendirme olmaz da yazılar Türkçedir


Yine çok iyi bir özellik, bütün menüler, tech ağacı oyun içi advisorun açıklamaları, üniteler üzerine gelince çıkan açıklamalarda Türkçe olacaksa çok iyi iş çıkarmışlar. Bir iki forum gezdim, yunanlılar oyunda greek faction var neden yunanca dil desteği yok diye şikayet ediyorlar :). En çok korsan bizde var adamlar bize yinede çalışmış.

Steamde oyun 120 tl, aral ve pepsi ile 66 tl ye alıyoruz. Türkiyede bir potansiyel mi gördüler acaba çalışıyorlar buraya.
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Feamer Grand Master

Feamer

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saplanan kılıçlar, sırtında mızrakla önce dizlerini üstüne sonra yüz üstü düşen adamlar -kıyıdan çıkarma yapılan şehir savaşında var-, kesmeler, çırıpınışlar, son vuruşlar falan var,

ama öyle yarma, koparma, havaya kaldırma, çiğer yeme falan saçma olur zaten,

zaten çok uygun bir pozisyonda değilsen, kılıcı veya mızrağı saplayıp geçmek istersin, boşa vakit harcayıp açık hedef olamamak için
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Feamer Grand Master

Feamer

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işte o moda girersen adam arkadan gelip şişler seni, tabi farazi konuşuyoruz, zaten o çağda gerekli güç ve silah barbarlardan başka kimsede yok, birde süvariler falan kılıç veya balta ile kafa koparabilir.

yani adamlar -barbarlar hariç- hayatta kalmak için pratik ve hızlı olunması gerekliliği ihtiyacı düşüncesi üzerinden fikir yürütüyorum.
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Feamer Grand Master

Feamer

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Antik gemiler ile ilgili incelemeler, hızları, boyları, işlevleri falan

Bu konuda Antik Çağların savaş gemilerini tanıtmaya çalışacağım. Bu eski zamanlarda gemiler kürekçi sayısına ve dizilimine göre isimlendirilirdi.


Pentekonter

Yaygın kullanıldığı tarih: Arkaik Dönem, İÖ800 - İÖ480
Kürekçi dizilimi: Tek sıra halinde 25 kürekçi sağ tarafta, 25 kürekçi de sol tarafta, toplam 50 kürekçi.
Boyutları: 28 - 33 metre uzunluk, 4 metre genişlik
Hız: Saatte 18km
Savaşçı: ? (Tahminen en çok 20 olabilir)

Pentekonteralar ticaret ve savaş gemileri arasında bir fark olmadığı bir dönemde bulunmuşlardır. Çok yönlü kullanılıyorlardı. Ticaret, savaş, korsanlık, gözcülük ve taşımacılık kullanıldıkları alanlar arasındaydı. Bir pentekonter iki sıraya 25-25 bölünmüş 50 kürekçi tarafından hareket ettiriliyordu. Eğer rüzgar iyi esiyorsa gemi yelkenle de hareket ettirilebiliyordu. Pentekonterin 30 kürekçi ile hareket ettirilen ve Triakonter adı verilen daha küçük versiyonları da vardı.


Bir Pentekonter maketi


Bireme

Yaygın kullanıldığı tarih: Hellenistik dönem (En eski İÖ 8. yüzyıl)
Kürekçi dizilimi: Çift sıra halinde 60 kürekçi sağ tarafta, 60 kürekçi de sol tarafta, toplam 120 kürekçi.
Boyutları: 24 metre uzunluk, 3 metre genişlik (Triakonterin 2 katı uzunluk ve yükseklikte)
Hız: Trireme ve Quadrireme gibi daha ağır gemilerden hızlı
Savaşçı: Maksimum 50 asker

Bireme iki kürekli anlamına gelmektedir. Biremeler iki kürekçi güvertesine sahipti ve Pentekonterden evrilmişti.  Fenikelilerden Yunanlara geçtiği tahmin ediliyor. Bireme tipi gemiler Jül Sezar'ın Britanya istilasında Romalılarca bolca kullanılmıştı. Bireme daha sonra geliştirilerek Trireme icat edilecekti.


Bir Bireme çizimi


Bir Bireme maketi


Trireme

Yaygın kullanıldığı tarih: Hellenistik dönem
Kürekçi dizilimi: Üçlü sıra halinde 85 kürekçi sağ tarafta, 85 kürekçi de sol tarafta, toplam 170 kürekçi.
Boyutları: 35 metre uzunluk, 4.8 metre genişlik
Hız: Saatte 12km (Farklı kaynaklarda 15km'ye kadar olduğu yönünde iddialar var)
Savaşçı: Ortalama 30 asker

Trireme'nin Corinthli Ameinocles tarafından icat edildiği öne sürülür. Akdeniz havzasında bulunan eski medeniyetlerce, özellikle Fenikeliler, Yunanlılar, Kartacalılar ve Romalılar, tarafından kullanılmıştır. Bu gemi antik çağlarda ve mitolojide önemli bir yer tutar. Bu gemi öncelikli olarak kürekle ilerlemek için tasarlanmıştır. Ancak yardımcı olması için yelken donanımına da sahiptir. İçine asker bindirilip savaş ya da çıkartma yapılabilir.Geminin önünde ise savaşta diğer gemileri korkutup kaçırmak için biri sağda diğeri solda 2 adet göz bulunurdu Etkin biçimde kullanılmış olup daha sonra yerini ağır savaş gemilerine bırakmıştır. Saldırı stratejisi sürat üzerine kuruludur. Pruvada yer alan mahmuzu iyi ayarlanmış bir hızla düşman gemisine vurarak onu kullanılmaz hale getirebildiği için tıpkı denizde ilerleyen bir mermi gibi olması gerekir. Mahmuz girdiği geminin içine takılıp kalabilir ve bu durumda saldıran, avcı olma konumunu kaybederek bir ava dönüşebilir. Bu mahmuzlar genellikle tunç gibi ağır malzemeden yapılmıştır. Trireme ilk ortaya çıktığında asıl amaç düşman gemisini borda edip ele geçirmek değil, vurup batırmaktı. Güverte 2 ya da 3 katlıdır ve her katta kürekçiler dizilidir. Her kürekçiye 1 kürek düşer. Trireme ismi (üçlü) buradan gelmektedir. Özellikle Yunan şehir devletlerinde kürekçiler köle değil maaşlı vatandaşlardır. Atina şehir devletinin sahip olduğu triremeler (İ.Ö. 4.yy) güverte üzerinde ancak 15-20 piyade taşırken, sonraki dönemlerde Roma triremeleri, Pön Savaşları sırasında bu sayıyı 120'ye kadar çıkartmıştır. Gücünün zirvesindeyken Atina 300 parçalık filosunun devamlılığını sürdürebilmek için yılda 20 trireme inşa etmekteydi.


Bir Yunan Triremesi



Kürekçi pozisyonlarının profilden görünümü      
Farklı bir tür kürekçi dizilimine sahip Trireme profili


Quadrireme

Yaygın kullanıldığı dönemler: İskender ve Diadochi dönemleri, Pön Savaşları
Kürekçi dizilimi: Dörtlü sıra halinde 116 kürekçi sağ tarafta, 116 kürekçi de sol tarafta, toplam 232 kürekçi.
Boyutları: 37 metre uzunluk, 6 metre genişlik, 60 ton ağırlık
Hız: Trireme'den yavaş
Savaşçı: 60-80 asker

Büyük İskender'in öldüğü yıllarda popüler olan Quadriremeler ağır savaş gemisi sınıfına girmekteydi. Üzerine katapult gibi büyük mancınıklar yerleştirilebiliyordu. Okçular için kulesi ve çağın gemilerinde neredeyse bir standart olan, mahmuzlamak için ağır bronz pruvası vardı.


Bir Quadrireme çizimi


Çeşitli gemi tiplerinin kürekçi pozisyonları


Quinquereme

Yaygın kullanıldığı tarih: Pön Savaşları
Kürekçi dizilimi: Beşli sıra halinde 150 kürekçi sağ tarafta, 150 kürekçi de sol tarafta, toplam 300 kürekçi.
Boyutları: 40 metre uzunluk, 7 metre genişlik, 100 ton ağırlık (150 Ton maksimum)
Hız: Trireme'den yavaş
Savaşçı: 120 asker

Dionysius I of Syracuse tarafından icat edilmiş Antik Çağ'ın belki de en ünlü savaş gemisidir. Roma ve Kartaca'nın en çok kullandığı gemi türüdür. Bu 100 tonluk canavarlar kötü hava koşullarına da diğer gemilerden daha dayanıklıydılar. Güvertesinde çeşitli mancınık tipleri bulunabilirdi. Romalılar düşman gemisini ele geçirmede kullanılan bir köprü de eklemişlerdi; Corvus. Corvus sayesinde Romalılar Kartacalıları denizde mağlup etmeyi başardılar nitekim yine Corvus yüzünden dengesi bozulan gemiler bir fırtınada on binlerce mürettebatıyla beraber batınca Corvus'tan vazgeçtiler.


Bir Quinquereme çizimi


Bir Quinquereme çizimi


Bir Quinquereme çizimi


Deceres

Yaygın kullanıldığı tarih: Pön Savaşları sonrası
Kürekçi dizilimi: Onlı sıra halinde 286 kürekçi sağ tarafta, 286 kürekçi de sol tarafta, toplam 572 kürekçi.
Boyutları: 44 metre uzunluk, 8 metre genişlik
Hız: Trireme'den yavaş
Savaşçı: 250 asker

Pön Savaşları sonrası Romalılar daha büyük savaş gemileri inşa etmeye karar verdiler. Böylece ortaya onlular adı verilen Decere çıktı. Güvertesinde 2 okçu kulesi ile 6 katapult bulunuyordu.


Bir Deceres çizimi


EKLENDİ:
İsim / Mürettebat (Kürekçi+Savaşçı) / Eklendiği Mesaj

Pentekonter (50+15) http://www.totalwar-turkiye.com/twforum/index.php?topic=87277.msg897181#msg897181
II. Bireme (120+20) http://www.totalwar-turkiye.com/twforum/index.php?topic=87277.msg897232#msg897232
III. Trireme (170+30) http://www.totalwar-turkiye.com/twforum/index.php?topic=87277.msg897313#msg897313
IV. Quadrireme (232+70) http://www.totalwar-turkiye.com/twforum/index.php?topic=87277.msg897750#msg897750
V. Quinquereme (300+120) http://www.totalwar-turkiye.com/twforum/index.php?topic=87277.msg898015#msg898015
VI. Deceres (572+250) http://www.totalwar-turkiye.com/twforum/index.php?topic=87277.msg898020#msg898020
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?557729-My-list-of-Ship-Types-weapons-and-tactics-that-could-be-in-ROME2-Please-help-add-to-my-list
My list of Ship Types, weapons and tactics that could be in ROME2 - Please help add to my list
I have started this document as I want to know what possible ship types will be in Rome2. Lets face it, we all know what to expect from the Ancient armies more or less. But we do not really know what CA will do with the navy. It simply has not been done before in detail.

I notice that a lot of people seem to have written off the navy element of Rome2 already as a boring affair that will simply be a supplement to the land based part of the game. Personally in the most recent total war games I have found the navy to be a very interesting addition to the total war series. However this area seems to have been dumbed down and negelected when it has been included in previous games. Having nowhere near enough detail or options as the land based battles have.

I assume from what I see in the ROME TOTAL WAR PRIMA official game guide that the same ships in that book will at a minimum appear in Rome2. These being;
• Bireme
• Trireme
• Quinquireme
• Corvus Quinquireme
• Decere
• Boats
• Large boats

I found it very amusing that the Carthaginians had less ship types than the romans did in Rome1

If you have anything to add I would dearly like to know about it. I am interested in knowing as much as possible about naval warfare in the age of antiquity. What we are likely to see and what modders will possibly do on the subject of rome2 and its navies. Some of the ship types below need to be fleshed out
as some of my additional sources are still coming in the mail!

I am not interested in comments from those who think there is no point to such speculative posts. This is purely for the enjoyment of those of us interessted in learning about the period and what could be in Rome2 before it comes out. Our collective knowledge may even help shape development if we are lucky.




---------------------------------------------
Heavy warships.
It should be noted that these ships are not the limits
of what was actually built. Just the more common types.

Trireme (three rowers)
The quintessential war galley used throughout the ancient period.
Trireme had a projecting gallery fitted to each side to house a third bank of rowers, the name Trireme means three oared. In ships with multiple banks of rowers the rowers were housed in several projecting galleries. 

Carthaginian Trireme


Average Length: 37 to 40 meters long
Average Width: 6 meters
Fenced or Unfenced


Quadrireme (four rowers)
Powered by two banks of rowers, 30 to 40 per side with single mast and sail. This ship could have between 70 and 100 marines. Used in coastal fleets due to the shallow draught and its ability to beach.

Average Length: 35 meters long
Average Width: 6 to 7 meters
Generally fenced

A picture of a Roman Quadrireme. Note the outrigger jutting out along the top side which is typical of Greek (Roman) ship building.


Quinquereme (five rowers) (can have towers)
Powered by three banks of rowers 90 per side the upper banks of oars would have had two rowers per oar. Fitted with a main mast and fore mast and often rigged with two sails. The Quinquereme was very similar to the Trireme and also had a projecting gallery fitted to each side to house a third bank of rowers. The difference between the two types appears to be the numbers of rowers manning the oars. The top two banks or oars had 2 rowers on each oar, whilst the lowest bank had one man per oar. This gave five teams of rowers on three sets of oars, hence the name Quinquereme, meaning five oared. This made sense as the bottom oars were shorter and lighter, the top banks were heaver due to their length and had further to move each stroke. The other advantage was increased speed and distance due to the additional manpower. This vessel could also have had a compliment of between 100 and 140 marines.
This ship type was the mainstay of the Roman Battle Fleets it seems.

Average Length: 40 meters long
Average Width: 5 meters
Generally fenced

A picture of a Selucid Quinquereme. Greek style outrigger.


Hexareme (six rowers) (can have towers)
Powered by three banks of rowers, 75 to 100 per side with single mast and sail. This type is recorded at the battle of Actium on both sides. Confusion has been caused caused by the fact that they were the largest ships in Octavian's fleet and almost the smallest ships in Mark Antony's fleet. This class of ship may have been a trireme with two rowers on each oar. 

Average Length: 35 to 40 meters long
Average Width: 5 to 7 meters
Generally fenced

Septireme (seven rowers)
NO DATA

A picture of a Septireme. A Carthaginian one. Note how there does not seen to be an outrigger and the ship seems tall with straight sides.
This is claimed to be typical of carthaginian naval building technique.


A Mecedonian Septireme. Note the Greek style outrigger for the oars. This could be what makes a little differentiation for Rome2 naval looks. Taking a little "attack of the clones" out of the mix.


Octeres (eight rowers)
NO DATA


Enneres (nine rowers)
NO DATA

Deceres (ten rowers)
NO DATA

Larger polyremes (Giant Flagships, often unique rather than a class as such)
Antony and Cleopatra had many of the largest warships of greek antiquity in service at the battle of actium.
They burned all of their own smaller ships. They lost the battle and much of the larger galleys fell out of service and the
knowledge of how to build them was lost. I cannot help thinking whether Antony had any idea what he was doing and how
to use the large ships he had. It seems to me that burning all his smaller ships negated the value of the larger ships hitting power.

The Largest ship of Antiquity (in the west). So large that its dimensions are very well recorded and known.
Even still some think it was a catamaran. It was called the Tessarakonteres but I cannot find a good picture of this
giant "40 rowers" vessel.

Closest I could find was this "30". I have no idea how they would have pulled this out of the water!


This was apparently originally owned by the Thracians before being offered to the Egyptians of the time


This thing was 20m wide and 70m long!


Some barge like ships were also built and were more like royal transport than anything else. 
This one for sailing on a lake. 
The wreck of this one was actually found and then destroyed during ww2 before scientists could learn
the secrets of its construction. 
Have a look at the tiny workers, this thing was massive.


Light warships

Penteconter
Powered by single banks of rowers, 25 per side with single mast and sail. Originally a ship with up to 50 rowers it developed over the years into a general purpose vessel. Used by both the merchant marine and the navy as a general purpose and scout vessel. This original lengthy vessel, was open to the elements with a partial or no deck. This is an early type that may not have even been in service by the time of any Roman naval battles.

Average Length: 30 meters long
Average Width: 4.5 meters
Generally unfenced

Lembos
NO DATA




Actuaria
NO DATA

Roman Actuarius of the Imperial Era


Roman Repulican Actuaria


Hemiolia (Monoreme)
Powered by single or double banks of rowers, 15 per side with single mast and sail. Its uses is unclear but it appears that it was too light for battle so it is likely to have been a river patrol, scout or dispatch vessel.

Average Length: 15 - 20 meters long
Average Width: 4 meters
Generally fenced


Trihemiolia
This type of ship seems to be a very very light Trireme missing a lot of the heavier features of standard triremes.

A Rhodian Trihemiolia. The Rhodian navy were some of the best.


Celes
Light Roman scout or pirate galley

Illyrian Pirate Galley


Liburnians (Bireme)
Liburnians were originally pirate vessels of a swift nature. The Romans adopted the design in its heavier form it seems using two banks of oars rather than one. This ship type seems to have been extremely common and they were often used as scouts and pirate hunters.
Also used in the river fleets due to the shallow draught, the upper deck rails were extended (some were fitted with a partial roof as well) to provide the soldiers and crew protection form missile attack. This type of vessel would have also have had a compliment of between 30 and 60 marines.

Average Length: 25 to 30 meters long
Average Width: 4.75 meters
Generally fenced in roman service

Greek Liburnian


Carthaginian Bireme


A Roman Bireme. Note the tower on the front.


A small roman Liburnian. Possibly for courier use.


A Roman Liburnian allegedly used at the battle of actium


A diagram showing the real difference between ship classes. The manpower at the oars.


The Weapons & Tactics of a War Galley

Corvus – Made the ship unstable but enabled the Roman Marines to use their scutum and board as if fighting on land. Entire fleets were lost because of the unstability caused by this weapon. Used by the Romans only.
Ram – Used to ram other ships and hole them. Some specialist RAMs were designed to breach under the water.
Bear – A type of ram that is designed not to pierce enemy ships but to bunt them. This weapon had the effect of throwing rowers off their benches and marines into the sea before boarding is attempted.
Catapults - Apparently Alexander used them and it is assumed later fleets would have used them as well. I have read some material that claims catapults would be useless due to their less than accurate trajectory against a moving target.
Bolt throwers – These could pierce upper hulls disabling rowers and other crewmen
Archers – Clear the enemy decks and fire ships. 
Javelin – Clear enemy decks as they get closer or before boarding.
Fire fire projectiles and arrows – A common tactic of Roman era warfare seems to be the use of fire as a tactic for burning ships. This deserves more research as their may well be greek fire which is hard to put out as well as standard fire projectiles which crews can put out more easily.
Redundant oarsmen – Some ship types have enough rowers on each oar that gives an advantage of not so much of an effect being had when one dies in battle.
Spare Rowers – A lot of ships especially larger ships carried reserve rowers that were used to switch exhausted or dead rowers.
CataphractFenced – This means the ship was covered with wooden planking and re-enforced on both the tops and sides to protect rowers. Some ships had rowers exposed instead.
Light BuiltNormal Built Re-enforced hull (heavy built) – Ships within classes were often built to a particular doctrine or purpose. Light ships were faster and made saving weight where ever possible. Heavier ships would have re-enforced heavier wood types and be stronger below the water line to resist ramming. Carthaginian build quality seems to have been far superior to Roman build quality especially early on.
Outrigger – The greek doctrine which the Romans adopted seems to have used an outrigger to project the upper row of oars while the Carthaginian shipwrights seems to make their ships taller instead.
Chasing down one ship with many – A tactic that seems to have been used is for one chasing ship to go to ramming speed to exhaust the rowers of the fleeing ship. Once the fleeing ships crew and the chasing ships crew were exhausted the remaining pursuers could over take the fleeing ship at leasure.
Raking Oars – A major disabling tactic of this era was to pull in your ships oars as you swept past the enemies oars breaking them and disabling the oars on an entire side of the enemy ship. 
Grapple ballista – This weapon seems to be a little later than others. It was a bolt thrower that had an attachment that allowed grappling. The weapon could penetrate hulls as fairly long range.
Ballista – Standard bolt thrower. 
Grappling hooks – Sailors using standard ships grappling ropes to board enemy vessels at close range
Boarding ramps – I do not know how boarding with a corvus took place. I assume a lot of the time that the outrigger actually got in the way of marines jumping from deck to deck. I assume that ramps or ladders would have been used but have no evidence.
Siege attachment – there is evidence of two ships being lashed together or one large ship carrying a siege tower or scaling device in sieges.
Room to lower ship sails below deck – Ships seem to have disembarked sails before battle where possible to avoid damaging them. However there is also ample evidence of ships raising sail to escape a losing battle. From what I have seen their must have been room to store the mast and sail in the middle of the ship just below deck. I also assume that the ships lookout at the top of the mast would have played a huge role in finding the enemy before battle!! The mast having to be pulled down just after?
Living space – Larger ships would have had an advantage at sea of having more living space for some. Fatigue must have played a large part in battles. Some crews sleeping at the oars. 
Waterlogging and Speed – Some Ancient Galleys were made of such light wood that they regularly needed to be pulled from the water to dry out to protect from water logging, sea borers and leaking. Waterlogged ships were much slower than their enemies. A good example of this was a blockade carried out where the besieging side was at a disadvantage because the besieged could launch and pull their boats out of the water at leasure while the besiegers had to stay at sea to enforce the blockade.
Rowing Speeds – Needless to say different crews would be capable of different speeds for different sustained periods of time.
I need data on this point. More rowers in ship types would obviously also have a relationship between the weight of the extra rower and diminishing power related to how many extra rowers on an oar was efficient. Some got so large that oarsmen had to stand instead of sitting while rowing.
Spare Oars – 30 or so spare oars are recorded as being carried by the average trireme. This means that damaged ships could replace oars in an emergency.
Sitting on Deck (trireme) – Marines and others on deck would be encouraged to sit whenever possible to prevent upsetting the rowing and stability of the ship. Marines would jump up only when there ship
had stopped to board.

Bibliography
http://www.h2g2.com/entry/A69451572
Greece and Rome at war Peter Connolly
Warfare in the classical world John Warry
Battles of the Greek And Roman Worlds John Drogo Montagu
Osprey Ancient Greek Warship 500-322BC
Warfleets of Antiquity R B Nelson
The Age of Titans:The Rise and Fall of the Great Hellenistic Navies Murray William
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenistic-era_warships
http://www2.rgzm.de/navis/Ships/Ship...alaEnglish.htm
http://www.navistory.com



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